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Author Topic: BAR vs MG42  (Read 3849 times)
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BaronVonJ
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« on: June 07, 2013, 02:57:12 PM »

PLayed another great game again last night, but one player kept griping about the BAR stats vs MG42. The BAR gets 3d6. The MG42 only 2d6, granted, at a -1 to save, so it kills outright anybody not in cover. BUt, the MG take 3 turns to set up vs the freedom of the BAR no set up. I'm OK with it. Any thoughts?
-J
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Tom Reed
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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 03:41:33 PM »

That does sound kind of bacwards, stats wise, especially since the BAR only has a 20 round magazine compared to the MG42 being belt fed.
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BaronVonJ
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 03:51:17 PM »

Can't find the stats for the MG34 either.
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Lowtardog
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 04:28:19 PM »

Hmm doesnt seem quite right to me. Perhaps they are wrong way around. the MG42 (been a while since I gamed WW2) could have variable rate of fire based upon whether it was drum or belt fed too. But I would think a higher rate of fire than a BAR which was really more akin to an Assault rifle in terms of mag and rate of fire

The BAR had around 500 rpm whilst the mg34 800+ and mg42 1200+

Belt fed MG were 250 rounds and the drums were 50 rounds to 75 for double drum. So even based on that its rounds down would give a better sustained rate of fire.

Game terms I would play

MG34 4 Dice and MG42 5 Dice, you may consider if set up on tripod adding in an extra dice for sustained fire or then add in the -1 to save
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:34:07 PM by Lowtardog » Logged
Arlequín
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2013, 12:59:55 PM »

I don't play ViDe, but...

Rates of fire are pretty meaningless, as they are based on a calculation... nobody ever sat a weapon down and counted the rounds fired in a minute (except on YouTube). What isn't included in a 'cyclic' calculation is the time taken to change magazines/belts, as well as problems due to heat and the necessity to change barrels during prolonged firing... not that the BAR can change its barrel in action anyway.

The BAR, as LTG and Tom Reed noted, is an auto rifle with a 20 round magazine... which is also in the most inconvenient position for reloading a weapon of that weight, whatever position it is fired from. '500 rounds a minute' involves 24 magazine changes, of around 3-4 seconds each, so that's pretty meaningless as a figure.

Training and the weapon itself also dictates how a weapon fires. Bren and BAR gunners put out more bursts than MG34/42 gunners in similar short periods of fire, but bursts from the MG34/42 had more bullets in them and the 'spread' of these bullets was also wider, increasing the chance of a hit across a target group (the Bren might put a couple of bullets in one man, while the MG34/42 might put one bullet in a couple of men, in other words).

BAR gunners were trained fire in two and five-round bursts, aiming each burst. With magazine changes, at best they could get through perhaps 120 rounds in a minute (according to the manual), or 24 five-round bursts. The basic range standards were; for the Bren almost the same (albeit with a barrel change at the end) in 38 aimed three-round bursts (115 rounds) and for the MG34/42 gunners, 22 aimed bursts of between 6-10 rounds (132 to 220 rounds), depending on the weapon (with a barrel change at 300 rounds when fire was sustained). The lower figure for the MG34/42 being due to the weapons needing to be re-aimed after each burst (they tended to jump around a bit).

Although the MG34/42 had drums, they were a low issue item (1-2 per weapon iirc?), whereas the ammo for the Bren and BAR was always in magazines (25 magazines spread across the section for the Bren)... although between fire-fights, these had to be furiously replenished with loose ammo.

Set-up times are relative... any bipod weapon takes the same amount of time to set up. Even if our Germans are using belts and not drums, they can still carry their weapon 'loaded' when action was imminent. Only when the weapon is to be mounted on a tripod, is there any appreciable difference, but then they had longer 250 round 'fortress' belts for the sustained fire role in any case. 

In short then, a higher number of bursts for the BAR (and presumably the Bren), but a higher number of potential kills for the MG42 does seem somewhat accurate, although whether this warrants an additional dice, I couldn't say. The set-up time seems off and I'm guessing that's for tripod-mounted weapons.
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Agis
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 07:40:11 PM »

BUt, the MG take 3 turns to set up vs the freedom of the BAR no set up.
I am afraid that you have something wrong...
 Wink
The MG-42 is set up using ONE Action, no more no less.
(See P. 27 Main Rulebook 8.9 Set Up/X)

So bring the MG-42 into a good fire Position, spend one Action to set it up and have fun!

Also the MG-34 is featured in the appropiate books (like the Fallschirmjäger or Early-Mid War German Infantry Field Guide)
See: http://www.wargamevault.com/product/103905
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 07:45:17 PM »

Game terms I would play

MG34 4 Dice and MG42 5 Dice, you may consider if set up on tripod adding in an extra dice for sustained fire or then add in the -1 to save
I can only agree ...and that are also more or less the values used in ViDe!  Wink Wink

MG-34 LMG (no tripod) 2xD6; Set Up 5xD6
MG-42 LMG (no tripod) 2xD6+1; Set Up 5xD6+1
MG-34 HMG (tripod) 2xD6; Set Up 6xD6
MG-42 HMG (tripod) 2xD6+1; Set Up 6xD6+1

compare that to the BAR with shorter range and 3xD6 and NO set-up Option all seems fine to me!
 Cool
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carlos marighela
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 09:04:16 PM »

I don't know how the rules work but if they in any way reflect some model of reality then the principal effect of the machine gun is to supress the target. If you are using that real world paradigm then a higher suppression capability for a fixed barrel automatic with a 20 round box magazine vs a belt fed GPMG type weapon simply doesn't wash.

In the time I was paid for playing soldiers our section MG was the M60, a somewhat naff weapon but none the less a GPMG, capable of reasonably high cyclic and indeed practical rates of fire, although nowhere near as high as the cyclic rate of an MG-42. In the GPMG mode on a bipod it was generally fired in short bursts. The old army shibboleth was that it represented 90% of the section's firepower. Now, strictly speaking it didn't not if you looked at the combined cyclic or practical rates of fire for the rest of the section, which included half a dozen SLRs a couple of M16s and a grenade launcher. Doctrinally its importance was stressed as it was what provided the supressive fire that allowed other elements of the section to close with and kill the enemy.

When playing 'enemy party' we often had access to what the Australian Army usually referred to as the AR, essentially a heavy barrelled automatic SLR with a bipod. You could fit the 30 round Bren mag to it but usually just a standard 20 SLR mag was used, so it was very much like a BAR. Not a very effective weapon for providing supressive fire, in fact it was usually provided to rear echelon troops like transport etc.

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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 10:23:47 PM »

Suppression is featured...
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Lowtardog
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« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2013, 08:20:48 PM »

I can only agree ...and that are also more or less the values used in ViDe!  Wink Wink

MG-34 LMG (no tripod) 2xD6; Set Up 5xD6
MG-42 LMG (no tripod) 2xD6+1; Set Up 5xD6+1
MG-34 HMG (tripod) 2xD6; Set Up 6xD6
MG-42 HMG (tripod) 2xD6+1; Set Up 6xD6+1

compare that to the BAR with shorter range and 3xD6 and NO set-up Option all seems fine to me!
 Cool


Ah that makes sense now
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BaronVonJ
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« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2013, 09:26:06 PM »

That would have changed everything.
http://baronvonj.blogspot.com/2013/06/victory-decision-crossroads.html
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Agis
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2013, 09:36:12 PM »

Simply ask for a refight....
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Btw - nice writeup! If you want a faster actvation sequence just roll for the 1st activation per turn and after that alternate between players, speeds up everything bu makes it way more predictable.
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BaronVonJ
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 03:30:27 PM »

I like the way it played out with our activation. Waiting to see what the Sci-Fi version brings.
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