lefttop righttop
leftborder rightborder
leftborder
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 24, 2017, 03:07:59 PM

Login with username, password and session length
Recent
[Today at 03:07:57 PM]

[Today at 03:07:15 PM]

[Today at 02:54:13 PM]

[Today at 02:53:14 PM]

[Today at 02:44:11 PM]

[Today at 02:21:55 PM]

[Today at 02:18:02 PM]

by YPU
[Today at 02:16:59 PM]

[Today at 02:08:30 PM]

[Today at 02:07:30 PM]
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
Author Topic: By Arrow, Bill & Sword (rules questions)  (Read 7535 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« on: November 21, 2012, 10:21:57 AM »

A thread for questions on the By Arrow, Bill & Sword rules, initiated by and carried over from here:

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=47708.30


Regarding rules, they're now available via my internet store as a free download.

www.miniatureMOJO.co.uk

The download link can be found on this page here:

http://www.miniaturemojo.co.uk/products/15/25/by_arrow_bill_and_sword/



First question, also carried over:

@silent invader
I suggest that you make a seperate thread for your rules "By Arrow, Bill & Sword".

I don't understand the point about playing cards
"Players are dealt cards for the order of initiative to make two moves each of either a single character or an eligible group."
Are they ordinary plaing cards?  Do you deal one per character or one per unit?
Does it go King goes first then Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8 etc down to ace being last?
Are all suits the same value?

Thanks
Mick

And answers carried over:

They were just numbered cards Mick, although you could use playing cards, yes. One card for each battle or command in the game. We had four players in this game, each with two battles under their command, so had numbers 1 - 8 to decide initiative for the various commands.


Thanks Richard.

Very happy to answer questions on LAF.

As Richard said, any cards (or dice but you have to reroll for draws) with a numerical sequence will do, as its just a means of finding which player goes in what order, with a player having his/her two opportunities to do stuff, then the next etc. 


Thanks folks!




Logged

vonplutz
librarian



Offline Offline

Age: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 194


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2012, 11:31:22 PM »

I have some questions.

Combat:
-Do you make one roll for each combatant in combat or one roll for the unit as a whole?
-If the prior do you then add the total for the unit and compare it with the total of the opposing one? (I think this is what your rules are saying but I'm not totally sure)
-The difference between the rolls is how many hits are landed and need to be saved? Thus making the winning side never take casualties?

Effect:
-If you have a unit who loses combat but passes the saving throw do they still flee if the roll is over 6?
-Since you roll the saving throw for each individual in a unit does this mean part of the unit would flee and part would not?
-Do they flee the base distance or the running distance or some other fleeing distance?
-When you say, "... otherwise flight will continue the next turn (but be in addition to the player’s usual allocation of moves per turn)." Does this mean he will flee a distance then be able to act normally or does he keep fleeing until rallied by a commander?
-Since the commanders cannot flee do they just keep slugging out the fight until they die or the opponent is dead or fleeing? If so this doesn't seem all that realistic, they're only human and would flee as well.
Logged

Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 01:54:42 AM »

I have put answers in the text

I have some questions.


Combat:
-Do you make one roll for each combatant in combat or one roll for the unit as a whole?

Per combatant

-If the prior do you then add the total for the unit and compare it with the total of the opposing one? (I think this is what your rules are saying but I'm not totally sure)

Yes

-The difference between the rolls is how many hits are landed and need to be saved? Thus making the winning side never take casualties?

Yes - sounds odd I know but in game play has worked for the period. The alternative is to play out each individual combat, which can be more practicable for distinct characters such as commanders but will slow the pace of the game; the player's just need to agree to do this.

But note that saving throws are capped at the size of the unit. Thus a unit of 5 that loses by margin of 50 only has 5 saving throws (not 50), which means you don't need to add up all the dice, if it's clear the margin is a biggie

Effect:
-If you have a unit who loses combat but passes the saving throw do they still flee if the roll is over 6

The break point is 6 and is calculated for the individual rather than the unit; it is also capped according to type. So a bill man dies on 1-5, runs on a 6 and is saved on 7-10 whereas a civilian non-combatant is saved on a 10 so runs on 6-9 while still dying on 1-5

-Since you roll the saving throw for each individual in a unit does this mean part of the unit would flee and part would not?

Yes

-Do they flee the base distance or the running distance or some other fleeing distance?

"The character flees (runs)" so you apply the relevant running (ie charging) adjustment

-When you say, "... otherwise flight will continue the next turn (but be in addition to the player’s usual allocation of moves per turn)." Does this mean he will flee a distance then be able to act normally or does he keep fleeing until rallied by a commander?

You roll for him each turn and if he fails he carries on running, unless he can be rallied. If he stops running he becomes a single one man unit (aka an individual character) who can be moved as one of his players two opportunities to do something or gets swept up by his own people (eg if they pull back)

-Since the commanders cannot flee do they just keep slugging out the fight until they die or the opponent is dead or fleeing? If so this doesn't seem all that realistic, they're only human and would flee as well.

They can flee but their player must choose for them to do so as part of his two opportunisties to do stuff. In essence, they have strength and honour such that their morale cannot be forced to break by the randomness of a dice roll.  This means that a player can't rely on his unit breaking to save the commander from a melee - the player has to decide to use one of his two opportunities to get the valuable commander out of danger, otherwise the commander will (strength and honour) stand his ground and probably die - commanders generally being put to the sword rather than captured for ransom)

A few words on realism. These rules don't set out to give everything so they require the participants to play in the spirit of the period and of the game. Parts might seem or be unconventional  but - hopefully- as a whole they will give a game that is engaging with a realistic overall result. That said, I doubt that they would work for ultra competitive play.


Hope that helps  Smiley
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:02:10 AM by Silent Invader » Logged
vonplutz
librarian



Offline Offline

Age: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 194


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 05:42:55 AM »

Thanks a bunch. Some more questions spawned from these and from mulling these over tonight. Sorry I'm so inquisitive but you and Captain Blood have been my biggest inspirations to start painting and playing again. Also your battles look amazing and if these rules work for you guys I can't see myself not being happy with them as well.

Force Composition:
-Are there any limits to how the force is composed?
-If not how does that effect balancing?
-Does a single unit need to be composed of the same quality of troops? Could I theoretically have a single unit composed of a man at arms, 3 archers and 2 billmen and just do their rolls separately to factor their modifiers before adding them all together?
-Does a man at arms in a unit still have influence?
-If the last question in the activation section is not true wouldn't it make the most sense to only take one unit for each commander allowing both him and the unit to act and just have a large quantity of commands?
- when you say, "Men-at-Arms (who are fully or ¾ armoured) have the influence to gather two units together to move as one." do you mean two units of men at arms or any two units under the command of men at arms?

Activation:
-Just to clarify for me in simple terms how this works.
1st: make a deck of cards with a card for each commander
2nd: when a card for a commander is drawn he may make two actions (this means if he has 3 units under his command he can only move 2 of them and he himself cannot move?)
3rd: combats/shooting is resolved (shooting falling under movement a unit could theoretically move then shoot as a single action, or shoot then move?)
4th: another card is drawn.
-Further the eligible influence chart shows how many units each commander can issue orders to but the units which he commands are not limited to his orders? (ie. a man at arms has 2 units, commands one to move and moves with it, then a captain commanding three units moves one of his and then the last of the ones under the man at arms' control)

Movement:
-Are there any restrictions to running? As in cannot run within a certain distance of an enemy, or negative modifier to shoot? If not I don't see why people wouldn't just run everywhere.
-Do charges need to be declared?

Effect:
-1-5 for everyone is death?
-Heavy cavalry/maa on foot/light cavalry cannot flee as they succeed on a roll lower than 6?
-retinue archer/billman/pikeman flee only on a roll of 6?
-the rest flee on a 6-#bellow the minimum roll required?
-If a roll is passed they stay in combat and it becomes a draw?
Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 09:48:31 AM »

I'll get back later today, when I can get in front of my PC  Smiley
Logged
Lowtardog
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Offline Offline

Location: Geordieland - Gods Country
Posts: 7842


« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 09:50:59 AM »

If not already the rules and thread should be a sticky mate Smiley
Logged
vonplutz
librarian



Offline Offline

Age: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 194


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 05:44:12 PM »

I'll get back later today, when I can get in front of my PC  Smiley

Thank you.
Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 08:43:05 PM »

Rather than one long post, I'll deal with the groups of questions separately.

Quote
Force Composition:

-Are there any limits to how the force is composed?

None defined but players should play in the spirit of the game: players should be guided by what is reasonable and realistic. 

-If not how does that effect balancing?

It leaves it wide open to abuse, which is one reason the rules won't provide a good game (and by good I mean reasonable and realistic) for ultra competitive players. 

I had a very rough idea of what Captain Blood was going to field, because we wanted something that wasn't going to be overly distorted.  There were no calculations as such, just a general feeling that we were quite well balanced (bearing in mind that terrain and objectives can cancel out superior forces, etc). As to what I mean by quite well balanced... see next answer.

-Does a single unit need to be composed of the same quality of troops? Could I theoretically have a single unit composed of a man at arms, 3 archers and 2 billmen and just do their rolls separately to factor their modifiers before adding them all together?

Absolutely.  In fact, highly recommended.  Both the Captain and I enjoy the aesthetics of a game and for the WotR mixed units look right (and are actually more useful - the Captain even mixes horse and foot).

For the two games, my rosters were actually as follows*:





*Erm, no they weren't as CB loaned me some of his to balance out but you get the idea.

From my lists you'll see that I have different sized units with varying combinations of troops.  Sure I could rank up identical bodies of men but (a) that wouldn't look right, (b) it's too inflexible, as large units get fouled and therefore slowed by the hedges and buildings that constantly force them to make good their line and (c) it can be advantageous to have supporting arms within the one body of men.  So, a mix of size and type gives the right aesthetic with a useful flexibility of deployment and mutual support.

Whatever forces you field, ask yourself: would they go to battle?  Let's say you had 100 men each then would 100 billmen face down 100 heavy horse?  Or would 100 heavy horse charge 100 archers?  In both cases: probably no.  Best thing to do is read a little of the history, an Osprey book will provide enough flavour to guide you in your unit sizes and composition (or there are a ton of threads on LAF debating ratios of archers to billmen and the such like!).

-Does a man at arms in a unit still have influence?

In general terms no, as that right/power belongs to his knight.  A man at arms can act as a focal point such that two split parties of up to 6 men can be merged into a larger pairing of 12, becoming their de facto commander.  Think of it this way, a trusty retainer is despatched with 5 men for a task and comes across 6 more of his Lords minions who have strayed: the MAA can bring the 6 strays into his own small force.

-If the last question in the activation section is not true wouldn't it make the most sense to only take one unit for each commander allowing both him and the unit to act and just have a large quantity of commands?

Each player has up to two opportunities to do stuff but a unit can only be activated once per round.  So if a commander has all of his army in his area of influence and moves every unit as one of his opportunities, then his second opportunity is forgone as there's no one left to move.  NB: This can speed up the early stages of the game as both sides can agree to move at the same time. 

In the first game we had a two player game a narrow front, so all moved forward together.  In the second we went without an army commander and had a four player game on a wide front, so with me playing 3 units I had to be adjusting my position so that one of them wasnt left too far behind.

- when you say, "Men-at-Arms (who are fully or ¾ armoured) have the influence to gather two units together to move as one." do you mean two units of men at arms or any two units under the command of men at arms?

See answer a little higher.  Any two bodies of up to 6 men each who are without a commander (eg, Knight) can be merged and led by a MAA, which can be useful for special objectives or for gathering up battlefield strays.  However, don,t overlook the pre-requisite that (other than the overall commander who owns everyone) to have influence they must be of the "same livery".  A Hackney billman isn't going to die for a Chelmsforde MAA but he will respond to the senior man who has his own knight's  favour (and who therefore has power over his life).

Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 09:15:49 PM »

Quote
Activation:
-Just to clarify for me in simple terms how this works.
1st: make a deck of cards with a card for each commander

No, not that complex.  You just need a means of finding the order of play.  If only two players just roll a dice to see who has the first two opportunities to do stuff.  Obviously draws mean re-rolls, which can get complicated in multiplayer games (as happened in Aliens at BLAM 2011, as Damas might recall  Smiley), so cards with a sequential order simplifies (and speeds) things.  Each player draws a card and highest go first.  The cards can be regular playing cards or fancy home made medieval artworks - it doesn't really matter, can even be straws.  The point is just to determine the order for the players for that turn.

2nd: when a card for a commander is drawn he may make two actions (this means if he has 3 units
under his command he can only move 2 of them and he himself cannot move?)

The card is drawn for the human player not a commander miniature.  So the human takes his two opporuntities with the extent of what he can move being affected by influence range.  So if he has an overall commander miniature (ergo: Army Commander) and his army comprises 3 distinct units AND they are all within his influence range of 18", then he can move all three.  If there is no overall commander then the the human player is restricted to moving only up to two of his three units.

3rd: combats/shooting is resolved (shooting falling under movement a unit could theoretically move then shoot as a single action, or shoot then move?)

Can move then shoot or shoot then move but cannot run (ie charge) if shooting.  So no sneaky shooting then running to engage a shot up force in melee.  So two opportunities to do stuff might be
(i) Unit A shoots then moves
(ii) Unit B shoots but stays where it is
So an opportunity to do stuff can comprise moving and shooting, shooting and moving, just moving, or just shooting (plus a few other doing things, such as lighting fires, etc but let's not over complicate).  This might seem imbalanced but its where tactics come into play:  you can move two big bodies of men or move one and fire a cannon (in the 2nd game Damas did the latter and blew a hole in a column which his cavalry then moved to exploit).  Also, in warfare chaps spend a lot of time contributing only a presence with a small minority doing the bulk of the actual fighting.

4th: another card is drawn.

After each of the human players has taken their two opporunities, the round ends and then cards are redrawn.

-Further the eligible influence chart shows how many units each commander can issue orders to but the units which he commands are not limited to his orders? (ie. a man at arms has 2 units, commands one to move and moves with it, then a captain commanding three units moves one of his and then the last of the ones under the man at arms' control)

Hopefully have answered this in my preceding post.

Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 09:26:08 PM »

Quote
Movement:
-Are there any restrictions to running? As in cannot run within a certain distance of an enemy, or negative modifier to shoot? If not I don't see why people wouldn't just run everywhere.

"Running is alternate turns and never up or down hill".

"But characters engaged in melee or who have/will run in the turn cannot shoot"

Thus, sometimes you can't run (moving up/down hill or you ran in the previous turn) or you won't want to run (you want to shoot this turn or you want to run in the next)

Most running takes place in the early stages, except for charging into melee (which is just running at the other side's folks).

-Do charges need to be declared?

Not sure what you mean by declared.  The mere act of running into an enemy body is by effect a charge: it is what it is.  In other words, charging is simply running (or galloping) into base-to-base contact, which will be revealed by the event.
Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 09:51:15 PM »

Quote
Effect:
-1-5 for everyone is death?

Not quite.  Not all humans are equal: some have better equipment, skill, knowledge and health, which is approximated to character type.  Thus a Lord/Earl/Baron can be saved by a roll of 3-10, meaning a 1-2 kills.  Knights and Captains are similarly advantaged, as are MAA on horse (who benefit from the chunk of meat they are astride).  For everyone else, death is a 1-5.

-Heavy cavalry/maa on foot/light cavalry cannot flee as they succeed on a roll lower than 6?

Yes.  They're special.  They only run if they choose to run.  Their lives are tied to their unit commander (the chap whose livery they wear) so they won't leave him.   

-retinue archer/billman/pikeman flee only on a roll of 6?

Yes.  Die on 1-5, flee on 6, saved on 7-10

-the rest flee on a 6-#bellow the minimum roll required?

Yes, so archers/crossbows/gunners flee on 6-7, wagoners/labourers on 6-8 and civilian non-combatants on 6-9

-If a roll is passed they stay in combat and it becomes a draw?

Yep if passed they stay in the game.  With regards to melee, I tend not to think of it as a draw but a continuation of the slugfest.  Withdrawing from melee can be difficult for a player who goes first, as he is likely to be be chased down by the player who follows, which can be a waste of the first player's move (so tactically it might be better to stay in the melee and use the opportunity to move up other troops in support, etc).

Phew.  I think I'm there. Hope it helps.   Smiley
Logged
vonplutz
librarian



Offline Offline

Age: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 194


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 01:28:07 AM »

Ok mostly clear now still a bit lost on unit activation.
-In the list you posted you have the overall army commander and a unit he is attached to? Does he take up his actions independently or does he count as moving and fighting with the unit only using one activation?
-Each warband looks to be broken into two units, one led by a captain/knight another by a maa. Does the maa still activate the unit he is moving with or does it have to be the captain?
-"Each player has up to two opportunities to do stuff but a unit can only be activated once per round.  So if a commander has all of his army in his area of influence and moves every unit as one of his opportunities, then his second opportunity is forgone as there's no one left to move." This makes it sound like a move for every unit in the army counts only as a single action and is further confusing me.

Sorry again for continuously pelting you with questions. I think after this is clarified I should be good.
Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 02:06:51 AM »

Ok mostly clear now still a bit lost on unit activation.
-In the list you posted you have the overall army commander and a unit he is attached to? Does he take up his actions independently or does he count as moving and fighting with the unit only using one activation?

He can leave his unit or stay with it.  Usually it makes sense for this bodyguard to be with him but an army commander's range of influence is so wide that they could be some distance away and still be moved as part of the one opportunity to do something.  

-Each warband looks to be broken into two units, one led by a captain/knight another by a maa. Does the maa still activate the unit he is moving with or does it have to be the captain?

Not so- you might be reading too much into my example. There is no compulsory split of a war band into 2 units and no compulsory de facto leadership role for maa. War bands are complete entities under their knight or captain - they only break if the player wants them to, as breaking could mean having to use two opportunities whereas if they'd stayed together one would have sufficed. Also, the break away element will be penalised for being away from it's knight/banner.  Usually best to keep a unit together as one cohesive body, which will also maximise its impact for melee and shooting.

-"Each player has up to two opportunities to do stuff but a unit can only be activated once per round.  So if a commander has all of his army in his area of influence and moves every unit as one of his opportunities, then his second opportunity is forgone as there's no one left to move." This makes it sound like a move for every unit in the army counts only as a single action and is further confusing me.

Think of it this way, in the early stages everything is nice and tight, orders are given and men move forward. As they move further into the field - perhaps to take up a more distant position - a unit might end up out of the army commanders influence range.  So command and control is no longer as effective as it was: cohesion is lost. Thus more effort is required to control the same number of men. Thus what could be moved as 1 opportunity in round 1 requires say 2 opportunities in round 2 and, perhaps as the army spreads out even more, 3 or 4 in round 3 ( though only 2 opportunities will be available - meaning a choice has to be made such that advance can become fractured as parts surge ahead or get left behind.)

- Sorry again for continuously pelting you with questions. I think after this is clarified I should be good.

No worries  Smiley

Logged
Silent Invader
Supporting Adventurer
galactic brain
*



Online Online

Location: UK
Posts: 7716


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 02:17:21 AM »

Btw, apologies for any shortcomings in spelling, etc but many of these replies have been typed on a handheld - tiny screen, fat fingers , etc  Smiley
Logged
vonplutz
librarian



Offline Offline

Age: 27
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 194


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 02:22:19 AM »

-So a commander can order everything inside his command range to do one thing and it is only one activation? ie. commander with three units commands all to advance and still has an activation (though nothing to activate). Could a theoretical situation arise that he orders two units to march, and the third to charge thus using two activations?

-Or am I completely off and the entire army only makes two actions, not two actions per commander?

-Can commands be given outside of a command radius?

No need to apologize. I feel I may be over analyzing these rules and they're simpler than I am making them out to be. Or I'm just dumb as a cinder block, either works.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
 
Jump to:  

rightborder
leftborder
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Waltz design by IchBin
Impressum

Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
leftbottomborder   rightbottomborder