Why is this place so GW-bashy?

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[Viper]

I'm another who wouldn't say this place is particularly anti-GW, compared to some forums, both general wargaming and GW focused.

I played GW games for some 15 years and only recently, last year or two, have actually flat out stopped playing, though that is more due to the fact that I only have a GW store to play in, no local clubs. I would probably still play GW games, particularly the likes of Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic etc, if I had space and terrain at home, and I would probably use other companies models/old rule sets.

Here there seems to be a fairer approach, rather than the really strong anti-GW sentiment you often get polarising GW focused boards.

Another part is a number of newer wargame companies have themselves no hatred of GW, often having been introduced to wargaming through GW. These companies accept they are in a different market to GW and just get on with it...the otherside of the coin appears to be Privateer Press, who from what I've seen are insainly anti-GW, or at least their communities tend to be. That was one of a number of things that pushed me away from the likes of warmachine, as while there are numerous aspects of GWs business policy I strongly oppose, other aspects, for example the artwork and world creation/background are often very good.

Here things like naming them "the Evil Empire" is atleast a bit tongue in cheek, or dark comedy, about how things have gone/are going.

[Grimm]

Well, you're asking for it, so here goes.

-They train their employees to be annoying, pushy and to treat their customers as if they were retards.
-Their products are way overpriced.
-They market their products as if they invented wargaming, theirs is the only take on the Hobby and it's theirs. Well, quite frankly, they are proselytizing.

I agree with Hammers but I also will edit some more points
-after 20 years of wargaminng GW diden´t make new things they rollback old stuff ,what I have seen over the years servell times and that is boring
-after 20 years I can remember a GW wich fair  prices and a    innovative  games (trollgames for kids,boardgames,RPG,Tabeltops and a WD with more than gw advertising) and it make me sad that these times are over

After all I diden´t hate them and I Know that they do something to bring tabeltop hobby to germany .
I only think that they become boring

cheers Grimm

[fastolfrus]

-They train their employees to be annoying, pushy and to treat their customers as if they were retards.
-Their products are way overpriced.
-They market their products as if they invented wargaming, theirs is the only take on the Hobby and it's theirs.

Again, we largely agree with Hammers on this one.
I read WD from issue 1 up to 100, then gave up.
I still have a variety of old games, Space Hulk, etc but never played 40k, and abandoned Warhammer fantasy after I finished reading the 1st edition (wonder where I put the book....)
The LoTR figures are nice, but their plastic figures are more expensive than many companies metal.

But the big gripe for us is the way things are marketed towards youngsters.
We run a school club and entered the "GW Schools League", two years ago we got a LoTR team through to the finals at Nottingham. The layout was very impressive, but our puzzle was why the "factory shop" had such a poor range of stock - less variety than our local stockist (and far less variety than the average high stree GW store) plus the fact that everything was full price. Any other factory shop that we have ever visited has at least some lines below RRP. Visit the Playmobil site outside Nurnburg (a truly wonderful place for a day out) and not only do you get a fun day out with affordable catering, but their shop is really well priced.

[fastolfrus]

One extra thought.

At least if we all bash the evil empire we don't bash each other, and since this is always a friendly well behaved forum maybe it helps to have a scapegoat to safely vent ourselves against.

[meninobesta]

There is lots of good stuff from GW!
They are a good gateway to kids for wargaming
They have made a really good job with warhammer historical, sometimes bringing focus to some specific period (which is also an incentive to other modelmakers beceuse they get more clients)
If you take away most of the competitive stuff out of their rules, they tend to be very fun, intuitive and simple to play
They really have good miniatures and excelent quality plastics

but I think that the focus on GW products most of the time is diferent from the focus of this forum... I think there is some criticism on some of their things but I guess that bashing is a bit stronger qualification

But I must admit that I'm very angry for what they are doing to the blood bowl web comunity, due to legal problems regarding the bloodblowl trademark.... and theier sual coorporative atitude stuff

[Thorbjørn Nielsen]

Well, you're asking for it, so here goes.

-They train their employees to be annoying, pushy and to treat their customers as if they were retards.
-Their products are way overpriced.
-They market their products as if they invented wargaming, theirs is the only take on the Hobby and it's theirs. Well, quite frankly, they are proselytizing.

I think they do get cred around here if they do something good (WHH Great War, useful plastic sprues, some terrain items, scenery articles...) but that's mostly because people are pleasantly surprised by them breaking a bad habit.

I'm not really sure when you meet up with their employees? Are you refering to the likes of Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestley or the common grunts in their shops?
Where I'm sitting there's only one GW-shop in Denmark and I've never been to it.. so I don't really know about how their employees are (or whether it matters one bit?)

The price of their products should depend on what people are willing to pay I guess... But I don't think they are much different from other manufacturers? Unless you mean the really pricey forgeworld stuff (which I find to be quite good quality though - as to what I've seen!).

They're more expensive than perry plastics... that's for sure. But I don't think that WARMACHINE or AE-II and some of the pulp/adventure figure companies are much cheaper figure:figure wise. The real difference would then be in the amount of miniatures they would like to see you bring to a game. But if you use GW miniatures for other rule sets that wouldn't be a problem either.

Have you got any examples of your last point? I don't recall ever hearing them claim to having invented wargaming? It's obvious that they no longer mention other companies (of any kind) in their magazine, but that must be a legal business strategy?

I started the topic after having read two posts here on the board where they got mentioned - immediatly followed by what sounded almost like a standard "and by the way I do not endorse them and hate them all I can on a daily basis" 

All in all I just don't see the big problem.. If they weren't there I wouldn't be here. But interesting to read your different points of view.

The whole Doomhippie analysis was quite inspiring! 

And of course the thing about this forum actually not being bashy at all! I must learn of some more forums I guess.

[Hammers]

Have you got any examples of your last point? I don't recall ever hearing them claim to having invented wargaming? It's obvious that they no longer mention other companies (of any kind) in their magazine, but that must be a legal business strategy?

Sorry, but I am not going to play opinion ping-pong with you about GW. I dislike their marketing strategy but I am not really out to win anyone over. Don't go an burn any GW stores down on my behalf. Bless you if you like'm.

Now don't you have something nicely painted to show us instead.

EDIT: I just recalled that some one a couple of years ago did a rather funny transcript of how a typical visit to a GW store transpires. Can't find it...

[Thorbjørn Nielsen]

Sorry, but I am not going to play opinion ping-pong with you about GW.

Right.

Now don't you have something nicely painted to show us instead.

I don't know.

[Silent Invader]

I don't really have a GW opinion, except that they are a handy source of a couple of paint colours I use and can also satisfy any need for an 'emergency' resupply of greenstuff.

I guess this is because I was a gamer 30 years ago with 1/72 plastics, then 20 years ago briefly dabbled with 15mm and 6mm lead historicals, before starting afresh some 12 months or so ago with 28mm lead historicals. 

In short: the whole GW thing just passed me by.

[Mattias]

GW made me a wargamer by introducing me to this hobby in the early 90´s!

[joroas]

Have you got any examples of your last point? I don't recall ever hearing them claim to having invented wargaming?

I remember them claiming that this was THE Games Workshop hobby.  Not Wargaming.

A bit like saying that football is the Manchester United sport.

It was the arrogance (or naiavety) of that statement that annoyed a lot of gamers.

[bc99]

I've been a GW fan for as long as I've been a wargaming fan... well almost as long!

I love Mordheim, I love the LOTR SB game (I think it's their best system, and has lead to historical gunfighting rules, pirate rules, etc), and I do love the background of 40k. Unfortunately, I think the rules are horrible, and the models are pricey.

I haven't played a proper 40K game in years because I can't get over how many points are needed now adays, the price of the models, and the dumbed down rules. That being said, I still have rogue trader and we often times battle using the first rule set!

So, everybody has their own take on GW. I love LOTR, and will continue to support their product, even though I do most of my shopping through e-bay and online.

Finally, it's nice to have a mainstream wargaming influence. It does introduce new blood into the hobby, and it's up to us to continue to inspire and train those newcomers when they finally look up from their GW game to take a look at what else is available!

[Onebigriver]

I agree it's good to have a gaming store on the high street and it was my introduction to wargaming, but I can't stand the agressive salesmanship when you go in, I think the prices are shocking and seem to be aimed at a certain demographic of kids with plenty of disposable pocket money. The attitude of GW generally seems to be unnecessarily intolerant and are going through another phase of sending out C and D letters which really does them no favours.

I do still like the figures but again the pricing is outrageous and I'd rather spend my money elsewhere. I do collect the LOTR figures but buy them mostly secondhand through Ebay.

At the moment to their credit you can download specialist games like Inquisitor and Mordheim for free, but you can't help thinking that they have a very cynical business plan when they're on the verge of releasing an 8th editiion of Warhammer.  Can't help but wonder how many kids are suddenly going to find that units/personalities are redundant.

I know it wasn't a big money-earner but I think that doing away with mail order bits was a mistake considering they've always said that converting was a cornerstone of the "Hobby" Copyright, TM GW etc

[silvana]

It was my introduction to wargaming figures.
I thank them for that.

The guys at GW taught me a few things about painting minis.
In my local shop they are very nice and very helpful, not arrogant at all. Though sometimes they think I am in there asking for my son and they don't expect a 30 something year old lady to shop there for herself. (Ha ha ha that breaks the ice a bit - then they relax and we start chatting).

Now after years of buying/painting GW, I found many other companies through word of mouth and through this forum that I find produce much more interesting figures that appeal to me.

So the only reason that I believe that they get away with the prices is because alot of people like me didn't know that there was anything else. That's what clever marketing is all about I suppose.

On that note I can gladdly say that I only go in there for bases now. I've kicked the habit.

As for your question I wouldn't say that this place is GW-bashy just aware that there are other producers out there and give them a go you won't be disappointed.

My two cents worth.

Cheers
Silv

[black hat miniatures]

The whole Games Workshop "Hobby " change passed me by.


I was very into RPGs as a teenager, ran a fanzine, knew Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone pretty well, and in those days TSR was the big bad corporation due to their insistence on protecting copyrights, though that didn't stop me working for Imagine Magazine for a while.

I dropped out of RPGs in 1988 when I started writing computer games and running my own businesses.  When I came back into Wargaming, through playing Napoleonics again, in 1995 I discovered that GW had changed.

I have played Warmaster and LOTR from GW and enjoy them, I think their products are well-priced for the services they provide - the ability to walk into a high street shop and get a game and painting advice.

The Games Workshop Hobby doesn't have much relevance to me, and never has - I'm grateful as a wargames manufacturer that they are bringing people into the hobby and that I can run a small business earning a living doing something I enjoy.

I think the major thing people forget is that they may have started in 1 Dalling Road with Steve and Ian as gamers and fans, but they are now a PLC run by the "Boots management" team who aren't gamers and who are in it to make as much money as possible for their business.  The same as Hasbro, etc.

Mike